~искусство the Lion kinG~
Ответить на тему  [ 175 сообщений ]  Пред. 14 5 6 7 812 След.
СообщениеДобавлено: 07 дек 2004, 16:47 
the king's right paw
the king's right paw
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
05 дек 2004, 17:46
Сообщения: 3554
ФуррВид: львица-кошечка
Откуда: Moscow
ну на самом деле у реальных львов есть что-то похожее на это. ну ведь львов взрослых выгоняют, а львицы остаются, потом к примеру возвращаются когда "папаша" стареет, и отвоевывают прайд себе, короче у них родственные связи не учитываются

мурмур


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 07 дек 2004, 18:26 
royal sentry
royal sentry
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
30 июл 2003, 15:06
Сообщения: 1316
ФуррВид: snow leopard
Откуда: Казань
Насчет отца Налы... Буркит побывал на ASIFA "The Lion King" Tenth Anniversary Reunion Panel, и там спросил, кто же, все-таки, отец Налы, у самих авторов. Вот цитата (говорит Джон):

...

"This is a question for the story guys; and I apologize for the "Trekkie" nature of the question-- you can feel free to tell me to 'get a life', or whatever..."

A chuckle went around the room, so I took the opportunity to breathe a couple of times.

"...So I apologize in advance; but I've been charged, for... ten years now, with providing to the entire Internet fan community (and believe me, there are thousands of us) with a definitive answer to the following question:

"WHO is Nala's father?!"

Full-blown laughter this time, as the question sank in to a couple of hundred people who had apparently never thought about it before, or who suddenly remembered they wanted to hear the answer too. Fortunately Rob Minkoff and Roger Allers were laughing too, ribbing each other, making little sidelong jibes. Finally, Minkoff looked at me, pointed at
Allers, and said "Roger."

More guffawing ensued. Minkoff and Allers then mentioned how they'd joked about this during production, tossed around some off-color gags, and eventually decided that they just "hoped nobody would notice". Heh. Fat chance, right?

Finally, after talking a little bit about how lions operate in real-life prides, Minkoff said, sort of muttering into his sleeve, that the general assumption was that Nala's father was "either Scar or... Mufasa."

So there we have it, from as official a source as I can imagine.

...


Так что отец Налы — Роджер. ;) Никаких Муфас и Шрамов. :omgfun:

Если кто не читал, как там было дело, то могу скинуть и весь текст целиком.


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 07 дек 2004, 18:53 
the king's right paw
the king's right paw
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
05 дек 2004, 17:46
Сообщения: 3554
ФуррВид: львица-кошечка
Откуда: Moscow
Athari да выложи весь пожалуйста текст, почитаю в свободное время, кстати кто такой Буркит ,очень имя знакомое, но не вспоминается :(

мурмур


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 07 дек 2004, 19:49 
royal sentry
royal sentry
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
30 июл 2003, 15:06
Сообщения: 1316
ФуррВид: snow leopard
Откуда: Казань
John Burkitt и David Morris — авторы Хроник. ;)

Okay, stand back... this may well be the most on-topic post of all
time. I hope the mail server can handle it.

I just got back, late last night, from the afore-mentioned event: the
TLK Tenth Anniversary Reunion panel and fundraiser, presented by ASIFA
(the International Animated Film Association) in Glendale, right next
door to Burbank just north of Hollywood. Information on the event is
here:
http://www.animationarchive.org/
2004_06_01_archive.html#108724782371860134

It's a gathering of eight of the producers, directors, and animators
who had brought the movie to life: people I've been wanting to meet for
the last ten years, all gathered together in the same place for
reminiscing and communing with the fans both local and devoted enough
to drive down from San Jose on a work night. Christian Ziebarth
(http://www.animated-news.com) was there too, as were Jim "Hill" Media
and other luminaries. Christian was taking copious notes, and he'll
probably be posting his own account of the events to his own site
shortly. However, in the interest of being timely and getting some
things typed up before they evaporate from my brain, I'm writing this
down now.


I got to the Glendale Public Library at about 6:45 (the event was to
start at 7:00); I went inside, and there were girls holding up
hand-drawn signs saying "Lion King upstairs", with a picture of Simba
clearly having been drawn by one of the animators in attendance. I went
up and was immediately met at the door by Christian; we sat down and
talked with Jim Hill and his friends (mostly on the subject of the
sorry state of the 2D animation world right now-- needless to say,
virtually everybody in the 200-or-so-strong crowd was a staunch
supporter of traditional 2D hand animation rather than the 3D CG stuff
that people are trying to hard to replace 2D with) while watching the
crowd for more familiar faces.

Eventually ASIFA bigwig Stephen Worth stood up in front of the stage
and showed a withered old sketch with battered corners and no
signature. Turns out its a self-caricature by Ub Iwerks, found recently
in a studio dumpster. It's probably priceless. He used it very
effectively to make his point that 2D animation is an art form unto
itself that can no more be "replaced" by CG than pencils and paint can
be replaced by photography. And although Disney Feature Animation has
closed its doors, and although 2006 is the last slated date for any 2D
animated feature to be released by any company, after which nothing is
planned at all, he said, 2D animation is NOT dead. To that end, he
announced the founding of the Animation Archive Project, conceived as
being a digitized online museum of archival quality scans of as much
animation art that ASIFA can scrounge up from the past century of work:
sketches, cels, pencil tests, demo reels, everything they can get their
hands on. They're only just now kicking it off, and they need $20K
before they can buy the equipment and fund the initial development. But
judging by the enthusiastic attendance last night, I don't think
they'll have any trouble reaching their goal. One day they hope to turn
it into a real, brick-and-mortar Animation Museum, and I think that's
bound to succeed too. Animation, after all, is a civic treasure for
Glendale, Burbank, and Hollywood; there's no way any of the local city
fathers could fail to see the importance of preserving something that
only ten years ago seemed to be here to stay forever, but today looks
all but moribund. I hope that anybody who has an interest in saving 2D
animation, and maybe seeing Disney Feature Animation resurrected
someday, will visit the site and contribute what you can:
http://www.animationarchive.org/


Anyway: After Worth spoke, Tom Sito (the moderator, and one of TLK's
story developers) took the stage; he introduced all the speakers in
turn: producer Don Hahn, executive-dude-at-the-time Jeffrey Katzenberg,
directors Rob Minkoff and Roger Allers, screenplay writer Irene Mecchi,
animators Andreas Deja and Tony Bancroft (and Alex Kuperschmidt too,
but he was just in the audience, along with a bunch of other folks who
hadn't been explicitly put on the panel), and CGI developer Scott
Johnston. Mike Surrey (Timon) was supposed to be there too, but he
bailed. Fooey. I wanted to meet him.

Rob Minkoff dominated most of the discussion; he and Roger Allers are
real-life clowns, is all I can say about them. They're both constantly
gesticulating, breaking randomly into song, doing silly voices at each
other, flailing their arms-- it's like they're doing story pitches
every minute of every day. (I wouldn't be surprised if that's how they
view their lives.) They were just mesmerizing to watch. And nobody else
could get in a word edgewise. The fact that these guys were all so
enthusiastic about talking about their experiences working on TLK was
really encouraging to me: I'd had the impression, from trying to
contact Hans Zimmer back in 1996 or so as to the possibility of seeing
an "extended" version of the TLK soundtrack based on his additional
compositions, and having him tell me that his studio had "moved on to
new projects" and mostly just thrown out all the old recordings, that
people in the industry tended to live in the moment and not drip over
nostalgia. How pleasantly surprised I was to find this absolutely not
the case.

We heard a lot of stories I'd never heard before, as well as some that
we all know (like the directors' trip to Kenya, where their native tour
guide introduced them to the phrase "Hakuna Matata" and what was to
become Rafiki's "Asante sana, squash banana" chant). For instance,
Minkoff told of how when he came to the project, he was shown a story
reel of what was then called "King of the Jungle", a half-hearted,
pedestrian, stop-gap, "real life National Geographic adventure" project
that was being staffed by the "B team" (all the second-stringer
animators and story people who couldn't get spots on what was to be the
much more prestigious and ambitious project, Pocahontas), he turned to
Hahn and said, "So... how much of this do we have to keep?" Hahn told
him, "None of it." (Though Hahn on the panel said he'd never said
that.) So Minkoff and Allers sat down with some other story developers,
and they hacked out the framework of the storyline we know today in
about a weekend.

Then, they were pitching the story to the executives and other
directors. Right about when they got to the Mufasa's Ghost scene, one
of them piped up and said, "Hey, this movie is King Lear!" Minkoff was
taken rather by surprise-- after all, Lear doesn't have much to
parallel TLK. But then another one of the people in the audience said,
"No it isn't-- it's Hamlet!" To which everybody sort of gasped, looked
around, nodded, and said, "Ah haaahhh..."

So the Hamlet connection wasn't something they'd intended. But once
they realized what they had going, they stuck to it. And the same sort
of thing happened in relation to a question Sito prompted them with:
"Do we finally get a statement about Kimba the White Lion?" Allers
chuckled and said that he'd spent a couple of years in Japan shortly
before working on TLK, and yet he'd in fact never seen Kimba stuff; but
throughout the 90s, if you went there, you'd be inundated with it from
all sides. So apparently, some time into story development, someone
walked in with a Kimba comic book drawn by Tezuka; Minkoff and Allers
looked at it, with its storyline, its Pride Rock-alike, its evil Uncle,
and so on-- and said, "...Huh. Wow." So, just as with Hamlet, the
storyline parallel is just something they stumbled into-- and yet they
forged ahead, without materially changing anything. And I surmise that
the uproar that followed owes more to Disney's legal butt-covering than
to any malicious intent by the writers. So that, more or less, is the
official word.

They told of how Elton John, a desperate long-shot at the time and by
no means assurance of success, was 100% on board with the project as
soon as he saw Hans Zimmer's reworked treatment of his "Circle of Life"
pitch. That sequence, one of the first things completed in pencils at
the beginning of the project, was held up by Katzenberg and others as
the definitive encapsulation of the movie, the piece to which
everything else would have to measure up. But then they later found
themselves struggling with the "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" scene;
they couldn't figure out how to make it work. First they took Elton's
song (what we know today as the radio version) and had Timon and Pumbaa
singing it, sarcastically. Elton saw it and went into a fuming rage,
which Minkoff and Allers related in quite graphic detail. So they
recast it, changing the lyrics around, making it into more the abstract
love song that we now have; but Elton was still furious: he called
Katzenberg on his cell phone as the latter was driving north on the
Golden Gate Bridge on his way to see George Lucas; Elton on the phone
was described as unloading on him with a string of expletives
unsuitable even for the Internet. :) But in the stream of invective was
a really important insight: the love scene, at that time in
development, was an *unearned* plot point. See, at that time the
writers hadn't fleshed out Simba's and Nala's relationship as cubs;
there was nothing to refer back to when they were reunited, nothing for
the audience to connect with or to feel any sense of realism about
their reactions to each other. So the story guys went back and added
all the little bits-- the wrestling/pinning scenes, the bath, the
waterhole, and so on. With those in place, the love scene made a lot
more sense, and Elton was appeased.

Katzenberg described how he and Pancho, the 700-lb male lion brought
in for the animators to study, "bonded". He said that at one point he
was sitting on the dais behind Pancho while the animators sketched, and
he put his hand on Pancho's side; and as he felt that earthquake-like
heartbeat, he said, he felt as though something weird and spiritual had
gone from the lion into him-- yeah, it sounds sappy, but he really
seemed to have been changed by the experience. I liked to think,
hearing him talk, that everybody on staff absorbed a little bit of that
sensation while bringing the movie to life-- and it's at the heart of
why we in the audience were so deeply affected by it.

Plus, Katzenberg went on, Pancho took such a liking to him-- rubbing
around his waist like a cat, purring (and all this time I thought lions
didn't purr!), rubbing his cheek on him-- that he ended up with a cut
lip when he was giving a presentation with Pancho on one of those
circus pedestal things. Pancho turned suddenly away from his trainer
(who was feeding him meatballs), misjudged the distance, and thwacked
Katzenberg across the mouth with the bridge of his nose. "So there I
was with a cut lip, bleeding profusely, right in front of an animal
that likes blood..." But it was all good, because Pancho got down from
the pedestal and curled around his ankles, putting his huge paw around
his legs (it came halfway up his shin) and purring. Katzenberg seems to
have been fairly deeply affected by this whole business, and who can
blame him?

Irene Mecchi, when given specific questions to answer, was a very
funny woman. It's her sense of humor that runs throughout TLK. She
didn't get to say much, and I don't remember much specifically about
the questions she was asked, but she could probably do stand-up comedy.

Andreas Deja (Scar) and Tony Bancroft (Pumbaa) told some very
insightful stories about designing their characters to match their
respective voice actors. Deja said that Jeremy Irons insisted on
working in as relaxed a manner as possible, leaning back in a big easy
chair, and sometimes smoking. "SOMETIMES smoking?!" Roger Allers
shouted. "Let me tell you: Jeremy Irons smoked *all* the time. He
smoked while he was *singing!*" He then mimed inhaling on an imaginary
cigarette and leaned in close to his microphone. "<sssssssuck> BEEE
PREPAAAAAARED!"

And when the principal animation on Scar was all done, Deja flew to
England to show it to him. Irons had never seen the character design
before, and Deja was sitting and cringing in the corner while Irons
watched the film. Finally, Irons boomed: "Why-- he looks just like ME!"

They then dropped a projector down to show a bunch of pencil-test
animations from the Scar/Simba scene right before the stampede. We saw
Deja's rough timing sketches, then the keyframe animation, then the
final inbetweened stuff. Really fascinating how much Deja's style
varied from his quick sketches to his final pencils; yet they kept the
same energy and expression regardless of how detailed he was being.
(Also there was unused dialogue in the tests: "Now why don't you be a
good little cub and prove that you can do at least ONE thing right:
stay right here on this rock and wait for your surprise." Which, as we
know, was shortened and made a little less condescending for the final
version.)

Scott Johnston was also there; he's the guy who designed the CGI
system for controlling the wildebeest stampede. We've all seen most of
what he had to talk about, though. It was, nonetheless, cool to see the
consensus that even back in the early 90s, as limited as the technology
was then, they managed to pull off the stampede so convincingly that
(in Johnston's words) if you tried to do it over again today, even with
the modern tools we have, you couldn't improve on the original movie.
Having seen so many studios flail at capturing that kind of motion and
realism since then, and seeing so few succeed (the LotR movies being
one example of a winning breakthrough), I have to agree. It gives me a
lot more respect for that scene and the way it was done.

Before they opened it up to Q&A, Sito pulled down the projector again
to show a video that nobody had seen since 1994: the "Wrap Party"
video, which consisted of clips taken of all the Disney employees in
the Feature Animation building waving, singing, hitting each other with
fun-noodles, playing ping-pong, wrestling, building towers of cardboard
boxes, smashing towers of cardboard boxes to bits, and doing silly
voices and making strange faces. You may have seen this kind of video
at your workplace, with people in their cubicles waving one after
another to some dear departing executive, set to Green Day's "Hope you
had the time of your life" song or something, cobbled together by some
enterprising employee in iMovie. But let me tell you... you ain't seen
no wrap party video until you've seen one directed by Rob Minkoff and
Roger Allers. That's all.

One of the most poignant (while funny at the same time) moments of the
whole evening was during this video; the clips of the animators and
cubicle-dwellers mugging for the camera were interspersed with little
congratulatory speeches by the voice actors, producers, and executives;
when Katzenberg gave his speech (he had hair ten years ago!), he talked
about how it had only been ten years before then that he'd come to the
studio and seen it grow from a slumping, backwater pit of misery to the
high-flying powerhouse it had become in 1994, particularly with this
very earth-shattering release. In the background of his reminiscing
were shown clips of the Feature Animation building
(http://www.wdccduckman.com/spgtpa6a.htm) being built in time-lapse,
rising next to the 134 freeway, truly a symbol of the studio's
explosive renaissance if there ever was one. But as we watch that video
just another ten short years later, the Feature Animation building
itself is derelict and abandoned, with the huge ABC headquarters that
resembles nothing so much as a Stalinist wedding-cake building looming
over it from its very front parking lot. (When Michael Eisner came
on-screen to do his laudatory speech, oh, the *hissing* that came from
the audience...)

So then they opened it up to questions from the audience. They only
ended up taking seven or eight questions, most of which were of the
nature of "What inspired you to do a movie about lions?" and "What
decisions influenced how you used foley in this movie?". When Sito
roved the side of the room I was on, he picked someone in front of me
first; after that, it was actually Katzenberg himself who called on me.
I stood up.

"This is a question for the story guys; and I apologize for the
"Trekkie" nature of the question-- you can feel free to tell me to 'get
a life', or whatever..."

A chuckle went around the room, so I took the opportunity to breathe a
couple of times.

"...So I apologize in advance; but I've been charged, for... ten years
now, with providing to the entire Internet fan community (and believe
me, there are thousands of us) with a definitive answer to the
following question:

"WHO is Nala's father?!"

Full-blown laughter this time, as the question sank in to a couple of
hundred people who had apparently never thought about it before, or who
suddenly remembered they wanted to hear the answer too. Fortunately Rob
Minkoff and Roger Allers were laughing too, ribbing each other, making
little sidelong jibes. Finally, Minkoff looked at me, pointed at
Allers, and said "Roger."

More guffawing ensued. Minkoff and Allers then mentioned how they'd
joked about this during production, tossed around some off-color gags,
and eventually decided that they just "hoped nobody would notice". Heh.
Fat chance, right?

Finally, after talking a little bit about how lions operate in
real-life prides, Minkoff said, sort of muttering into his sleeve, that
the general assumption was that Nala's father was "either Scar or...
Mufasa."

So there we have it, from as official a source as I can imagine.

Q&A continued; then the panel broke, and people started taking photos
and groping for autographs. I got my TLK trading cards signed by Deja,
Bancroft, Kuperschmidt, Hahn, Minkoff, and Allers. (Katzenberg had
scooted out a little early, perhaps sensing that the evening was coming
to a close and that he'd best avoid the mob.) I didn't have a
sketchbook with me, which is rather a pity, because the animators were
all doing little doodles of Scar and Pumbaa and (in Kuperschmidt's
case) Stitch and Koda in people's books. But I didn't want to pressure
them unduly, so I'll be satisfied with what I got. Besides, I got to
chat with some of these magicians (because that's what animators are:
magicians); and Tony Bancroft, in particular, is a very personable and
fun guy to talk to. (He looks sort of like Linus Torvalds.) I wish I'd
had more time to schmooze with him. But I got to talk to him about
those lithograph sketches in the Special Edition DVD boxed set
(http://www.lionking.org/~nafklt/tlkcpdpics.htm), in which some of the
characters (Timon, Pumbaa, Zazu, Rafiki) are perfectly on-model and
full of energy, whereas others were excessively stylized (Adult Simba
and Nala, who seemed to have gained a lot of weight), off of a model
sheet from 1991 or something (Young Simba), or dashed off without much
effort apparent (Scar-- eww). And I talked about his design process for
Pumbaa, a very bravely stylized character. It's clear that Bancroft
really loved working on this project; that's something that just does
my heart good.


I got close-up photos of all the principal players, plus a group shot
of them plus all the other people from the TLK project who happened to
be in the audience. You can see these photos at
http://homepage.mac.com/btman/PhotoAlbum12.html. Please forgive the
blurriness of the shots of the projection screen, and the graininess of
some of the ones in the dark; my camera doesn't perform very well in
low-light conditions.

And when I told some of them, like Allers and Hahn, that I had driven
down from San Jose, and was now leaving (at 10:00) to do the same
5-hour trip in reverse-- they were quite floored at the level of
importance I'd apparently placed on this event. It really *was*
important, to me and to the animation world in general, and I wanted to
be sure they knew it.

I made it home safe and sound at 3:00 AM; and since I'm still intact
in life and limb, that's the conclusion of this account. I hope I
haven't left out anything important; if I have, hopefully Christian can
help lend his own observations to the mix.

That's ten years, folks.


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 08 дек 2004, 09:02 
leader
leader
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
29 июл 2003, 15:34
Сообщения: 601
Откуда: Moscow
А аттачем не? редигия не повзволила?

[Lion King team][Programmers team][Furry team]


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 09 дек 2004, 19:54 
royal sentry
royal sentry
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
30 июл 2003, 15:06
Сообщения: 1316
ФуррВид: snow leopard
Откуда: Казань
Чтобы отправить аттачем, надо сохранить файл сообщения, прикрепить его, послать, затем удалить. Чтобы послать текст, скопировать и вставить. ;)


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 10 дек 2004, 00:01 
royal advisor
royal advisor
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
17 окт 2003, 17:01
Сообщения: 1501
Откуда: Цепной лев Ее Величества
Буркит побывал на ASIFA - Вообще-то Брайен Тиманн

Ненавижу СП и все, что с ним связано.


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 10 дек 2004, 03:33 
the deputy of the king
the deputy of the king
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
20 авг 2004, 18:37
Сообщения: 2048
ФуррВид: holy cheetah
Откуда: Петербург
До меня так и не дошло - что за косой лев по имени Роджер? Ясно, что отец Налы, но кто он такой и откель взялся? Бродячий лев или состоял в прайде? Куда делся от Сарафины? Или просто в кадр не попал?

Love is the answer to all that I am (c)
PS: Мои же имена - Лесс(Лессера),Салайя,Талана(Лана Тэг)


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 10 дек 2004, 05:40 
pridelander
pridelander
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
25 авг 2004, 09:33
Сообщения: 75
Откуда: Новосибирск
Может, его Муфаса выгнал? И так два льва в одном прайде... Вот, что, кстати, из этого получилось...

- О! Вы слепы!
- Я не слепа.
- Тогда что?
- Я просто не вижу.


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 10 дек 2004, 10:07 
tech support
tech support
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
04 авг 2003, 00:53
Сообщения: 3850
ФуррВид: Panthera leo
Откуда: other world
Ну и что что два? Бывает и больше... Тем более прайд большой...
(вот бы он скара выгнал :D )

You must take your place in the circle of life.


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 10 дек 2004, 11:15 
outlander
outlander
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
19 окт 2004, 18:55
Сообщения: 32
(Салайе) "До меня так и не дошло - что за косой лев по имени Роджер?" - Здесь недоразумение. Роджер - это Роджер Аллерс, аниматор (шутят они, шутят...). А далее по тексту они уже утверждают на роль отца Шрама или Муфасу - кому как нравится, тайна эта покрыта мраком.

(Котенку Гаву) "...возвращаются когда "папаша" стареет, и отвоевывают прайд себе, короче у них родственные связи не учитываются." - Учитываются, простите. Потомство не может позволить себе скитаться все время правления своих отцов; это делает ничтожными их шансы на выживание. Они вынуждены примыкать к соседним прайдам, что обеспечивает распространение генофонда и исключает инбридинг. Там достаточно сложный механизм, его изучением все еще занимаются.


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 11 дек 2004, 01:17 
veteran
veteran
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
31 июл 2003, 20:05
Сообщения: 494
Откуда: Snowing Moscow
Цитата:
ак что отец Налы — Роджер.
Кролик Роджер??? :vaau

Arbeit Macht Frei!


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 11 дек 2004, 02:13 
tech support
tech support
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
04 авг 2003, 00:53
Сообщения: 3850
ФуррВид: Panthera leo
Откуда: other world
аниматор Роджер.
(если кто не умеет читать на русском...)

You must take your place in the circle of life.


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 11 дек 2004, 02:26 
veteran
veteran
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
31 июл 2003, 20:05
Сообщения: 494
Откуда: Snowing Moscow
Для особо тормозных - это шутка:)

Arbeit Macht Frei!


Вернуться к началу
 
СообщениеДобавлено: 11 дек 2004, 11:04 
tech support
tech support
Аватара пользователя
Не в сети

Зарегистрирован:
04 авг 2003, 00:53
Сообщения: 3850
ФуррВид: Panthera leo
Откуда: other world
особо глупая...

You must take your place in the circle of life.


Вернуться к началу
 
Показать сообщения за:  Поле сортировки  
Ответить на тему  [ 175 сообщений ]  Пред. 14 5 6 7 812 След.


Кто сейчас на конференции

Сейчас этот форум просматривают: Majestic-12 [Bot] и 266 гостей


Вы не можете начинать темы
Вы не можете отвечать на сообщения
Вы не можете редактировать свои сообщения
Вы не можете удалять свои сообщения
Вы не можете добавлять вложения

Найти:
Перейти:  
cron
Создано на основе phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
Русская поддержка phpBB
[ GZIP: On ]